Simon Paynton

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  • #31798

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Is there really any such thing as a form that allows one society to “help” by the institution of infanticide while the other “helps” by forbidding killing under any circumstance.

    Both societies are collaborating internally towards a joint goal (the survival of individuals and the group).  Helping each other arises as a consequence.  The people in Sparta had solidarity with each other.

    platonic forms

    Abstract forms or ideas.

    #31787

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Surely a new species happens in response to local conditions changing, and this happens quite rapidly.

    #31786

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Exactly.  The structure of cooperation, and its shared evolutionary heritage, are universal.  The content of the structure varies locally.

    The Spartans and the Quakers both cooperate(d) internally towards their goals.  The proposed universality of helping, fairness and obligation comes from its hypothesised small-group origins.

    #31777

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Religious people seem to want or need moral absolutes, for things to be definitely right or wrong.  I’m not sure why this is.  I think each person is like the large groups of the world – morally unique, but sharing some morality with other people.  We all have things we think are definitely right and wrong.

    #31775

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Yes, I think “objective morality” is people’s own morality: the morality of the group.  The large group provides the objective point of view, the “view from anywhere”, where all rational people agree on what’s right.

    #31773

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Versions. Relative the the particular cultures. Relativism.

    Versions of the same concepts.  Helping is simple, fairness is complex, and different cultures carry them out in different ways.  That’s the universality we have.  We might expect the answer to be fairly abstract.

    #31771

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    It is true everywhere and for all time.

    Among the world of people – the human family tree of species.  Animals have their own versions of morality which nevertheless follow the same rules and are related to ours.  Even ants have theory of mind and perspective taking (it is believed, from the white mark mirror test).

    I think a non-relative morality consists of the core of ethics I gave earlier: helping, fairness, and obligation (to follow norms).  All cultures have versions of these, and all cultures have norms.  Norms are arguably a part of a group’s culture.  So, if there was a Venn diagram of all the world’s group’s moralities, you would find these in the overlapping centre.  The way they are applied varies, but always are seen as ethical and therefore their maximisation is desired.

    All groups share the foundations of cooperation and patriarchy, that work together to produce a unique human morality.

    #31770

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Is this article on the scourge of postmodern pedantry pointless?

    I find it hard to understand the outline of postmodern theory.  I believe they are probably misunderstood if people think they are saying “nothing is true”.  I think there are some good ideas floating around in there.

    Subjective truth is a real thing.  Each of us experiences the world in a unique way, and this experience can be affected by systemic power structures and hierarchies in society.  I don’t think that is controversial.

    Also, what appears or is given as true, has sometimes been determined by those in power.  That seems true as well.

    #31767

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    That’s a very interesting video.  I didn’t realise that “relative” can mean “relatively better or worse”.  This implies, a common standard anyway.  Perhaps “plural” or “various” or something would be a good description without the value judgement.

    #31764

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    I’m sure that is a very good book, but from looking on amazon.co.uk, the subject matter is more general philosophy and not really ethics, in the sense that ethics is the “good” or ideal behaviour.

    If not, anyway, I’m not too interested in the existing systems except in passing.  I have consulted “The Elements of Moral Philosophy” by Rachels.

    justice and duty (which cover mutually incompatible moral systems)

    We have a duty to be just.

    it leaves out dogmatic moral code

    I haven’t claimed to describe the entirety of morality in three concepts.  However, I see them as the core of ethics, the good.

    arbitrary moral norms that emerge from human culture

    Are norms really arbitrary?  Each culture lives in a physical place in a political and geographical environment, that has its own pressures on the population.  So, there are norms to cope with local pressures or conditions.  A norm is there to turn a potentially competitive situation into a cooperative one.  On the other hand, like you could say, there are other reasons for introducing norms, such as the dark side of religion.

    It says nothing about the framework needed to justify imposing a moral system in the first place.

    The framework that makes sense is cooperation with interdependence.  These conditions can plausibly be shown to give rise to a modern evolved moral psychology of helping, fairness, obligation, the social contract etc.

     

    #31758

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    That’s something you made up.

    It’s called “doing philosophy”, rather than just studying what other philosophers have done (poorly, in the case of moral philosophy).

    How do you know which books I’ve read?

    #31757

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    I’ll recommend a book…you can read an introduction to ethics before you start redefining it. If you give me an email I can even send you a PDF of a short introduction to ethics. It won’t take much effort and will summarize quickly and well the history of and main moral systems from past to now.

    OK, I’m all ears.  Can you give the name of it, and I can Google it?

    I’m arguing that human ethics consists of: 1) helping; 2) fairness; 3) obligation to others.  Can you think of any different categories of behaviour, that makes up ethics?  These are based on cooperation, and there’s a whole different family of sexual ethics to do with patriarchy and male domination of society (i.e., female subjugation and sexual control are seen as good, traditionally, but not necessarily in modern times).

    #31753

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Things feel different this time around.  I don’t hear much talk any more of “white fragility” and “white tears” and much more of “white people need to listen to black people”.  So, solutions rather than conflict.  I can accept that there is a lot of racism that white people never have to see.

    At the same time, as always, there are excesses.  Apparently now it’s racist to put anything else on the front page apart from Black Lives Matter (such as finding a suspect in the case of a missing little girl).  But, young people have always been full of shit.  I certainly was at that age.

    #31751

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    D’oh!

    #31749

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    I’m not sure that people’s needs fall neatly into categories of physical and non-physical.  If ethics means helping in response to need, and helping in response to the consequences of our actions towards others (fairness), then the need to thrive is both physical and psychological.

Viewing 15 posts - 1,666 through 1,680 (of 3,576 total)