Sunday School

Sunday School 16th May 2021

This topic contains 67 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by  jakelafort 3 weeks, 3 days ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 46 through 60 (of 68 total)
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  • #37737

    Davis
    Moderator

    Enco,

    Windmills produce more than 99% less CO2 emissions than fossil fuel based energy and create a LOT less polution than nuclear energy (this figure includes everything from fabrication, installation and running of the mills). That is green if green means anything. While everything you brought up are issues that aren’t trivial in terms of trying to make it even more environmentally friendly, they are super trivial when compared with any fossil fuel related energy production. In most of the North Sea and most of the Baltics…wind energy is the optimal energy production at the moment.

    What the most green technology a region should use depends entirely on their geography and climate. Solar, wind, heat differentials, hydro all are greenest depending on where you are and the infrastructure available. (Autumn pointed this out in her post I accidentally edited)

    Windmills not being green is a ridiculously absurd claim.

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Davis.
    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Davis.
    #37740

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Reg,

    That’s pretty much across the political portion of the Universe.  H.L. Mencken put it thusly:

    The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.

    The Far Right has moral panics about Q-Anon Conspiracies of child abducting vampire celebrities, LGBTQ+ people, morally-corrupt entertainment from comic books to Elvis the Pelvis on TV to “backwards-masked Devil Music,” and Divine Apocalypse(s).

    The Far Left has moral panics over “hate crimes” that turn out to be hoaxes, “inequalities” that are chimeras or easily solveable or shouldn’t be solved, the Internet ending yesterday over no “Net Neutrality,” and, my favorite, everything giving you cancer.

    And both of them hate Big Tech and are vying to be “Reality Czar.”  That mud-wrestling match is going to be something for Pay-Per-View.  I want royalties and dice for their garments!

    If these panics didn’t inspire actual policies and atrocities that affect real human beings, they would be a laugh-riot.

    #37741

    Yes right across the spectrum Encog.

    I can’t prove any of those politicians has sexual relations with barnyard animals, I just want to hear them denying it.

    #37742

    Autumn
    Participant

    You’ve left out the “centrists” who panic over the idea of being branded for taking an actual stance on an issue. Or who panic that everyone is an extremist these days. Or who panic about the world ever changing from what they thought it was when they were a kid.

    #37743

    _Robert_
    Participant

    You’ve left out the “centrists” who panic over the idea of being branded for taking an actual stance on an issue. Or who panic that everyone is an extremist these days. Or who panic about the world ever changing from what they thought it was when they were a kid.

    Israel and Gaza could use more centrists about now. Compromise has become a dirty word in a world brimming with ideologs.

    #37744

    Autumn
    Participant

    I don’t know that ‘compromise’ is considered a dirty word, but I do know its usage is sometimes considered a dirty tactic.

    #37745

    _Robert_
    Participant

    I don’t know that ‘compromise’ is considered a dirty word, but I do know its usage is sometimes considered a dirty tactic.

    I would certainly be grateful if the ‘center’ was a few clicks to the left and the voting public and elected officials could hold intelligent problem-solving conversations. That must be some other universe.

    #37746

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Authoritarian Left, and Alt-Right, populations share a similar “dark” profile: i.e., a willingness to use violence and intimidation to achieve their political goals.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405844020312974

    #37747

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Davis,

    I’d have to see those figures on Carbon pollution in manufacturing, installing, and running windmills.  Steel production takes enormous amounts of Carbon burning.

    Also, while nuclear power does produce waste, little of that is Carbon, breeder reactors don’t produce near the waste of older models of reactors, and nuclear power is the only energy source with waste that we can isolate from the rest of the environment.

    While the North Sea area indeed does have more wind to tap for windmills, Norway still gets the bulk of it’s “green” energy from hydroelectricity and neither Norway nor the U.K. will turn down a chance at more petroleum from the North Sea, nor should they:

    North Sea Oil: A Tale of Two Countries

    https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2021/01/north-sea-oil-a-tale-of-two-countries/

    Gas and Oil Discovery in Norwegian Sea

    Gas and oil discovery in Norwegian Sea

    It would be more precise to say that while wind may be useful in some regions of the Planet, for the Planet as a whole it doesn’t make a dent in overall Carbon usage and waste.  Hence, it’s just not really all that “green.”

    #37748

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Foul on Enco.

    Moving the goal posts so that no true Scotsman can wear his kilt inside out.

    #37749

    Unseen
    Participant

    On the balance, the cheapest, cleanest energy source with the least Carbon use and exhaust is nuclear.  That, combined with natural gas and cleaner uses of petroleum-derived fuels, is the way to go for a brighter future here and wherever else we as a species may go.

    True, despite the public hysteria over nuclear, on balance even today’s “dangerous” pre-thorium reactors operate cleaner than any fossil fuel systems. Occasionally (VERY occasionally) there are nuclear accidents which make headlines for weeks and months whereas the exhaust of fossil fuel plants quietly and slowly kills many more people on a constant basis.

    A lot of the danger of nuclear plants would be eliminated by more rational siting. Take Fukushima: Built on a shoreline near a faultline on a coast that sees its share of tsunamis. What could go wrong? Other nuclear disasters were made immeasurably worse by being constructed near densely habited areas, like Chernobyl. Again, what could go wrong?

    If we can get the kinks out of thorium reactors, not only would we have far safer nuclear energy, but thorium reactors can be fueled by the spent fuel rods that we currently store and which will remain radioactive for 10,000 years. For that capacity alone, designing efficient and economical thorium reactors should be a top priority. Forget the energy they might produce.

    Back to windmills for a moment. The blades are enormous and are constructed of plastics, and currently virtually all plastics are made from a process starting with petroleum.

    As for bird and bat kills, there exist bladeless turbines which largely eliminate not only that carnage but possibly also the low-frequency adverse health effects of the giant bladed windmills.

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Unseen.
    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Unseen.
    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Unseen.
    #37750

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Building nuclear plants in tsunami, earthquake, and hurricane zones or near major cities is plain stupid. What could possibly go wrong?

    Just wait till the first cyber attack on a nuclear plant….I hope they have employed top notch software/security engineers, or do they cheap it out and hire shitheads?

    #37753

    jakelafort
    Participant

    I don’t claim jack shit for knowledge of nuclear but i can pass on some hearsay. I had a client who was in management at a nuclear power plant who told me if the public learned of how close we’d come to disaster they’d shit their pants upside down. Of course the same can be said of nuclear war.

    #37755

    Davis
    Moderator

    Again, the plastics and CO2 output that go into making the windmills and maintaining them are absolute bloody peanuts compared with fossil fuel plants (including “clean gas”) and nuclear power plants. Nuclear plants require tons of toxic materials, labour hours (and all the driving to and from work), resource deliveries and the very power that goes into the plant to help produce power. No power generation is totally green. And yes…the issues about wind mentioned shouldn’t be totally ignored..but again…peanuts in comparison with others. Animal habitats are disrupted by all power generation (even solar).

    I agree that nuclear is a viable energy source and should be used. “Clean gas” is not. And windmills in some locations/climates are the undeniable clear greenest choice. This honestly should not be controversial.

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Davis.
    #37757

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Again, the plastics and CO2 output that go into making the windmills and maintaining them are absolute bloody peanuts compared with fossil fuel plants (including “clean gas”) and nuclear power plants. Nuclear plants require tons of toxic materials, labour hours (and all the driving to and from work), resource deliveries and the very power that goes into the plant to help produce power. No power generation is totally green. And yes…the issues about wind mentioned shouldn’t be totally ignored..but again…peanuts in comparison with others. Animal habitats are disrupted by all power generation (even solar). I agree that nuclear is a viable energy source and should be used. “Clean gas” is not. And windmills in some locations/climates are the undeniable clear greenest choice. This honestly should not be controversial.

    Yes. Trump was pissed because he could see a windmill from his real properties, began bad-mouthing them as “terrible” and windmills became just another target for legions of morons and pages of misinformation.

    Fucking idiot.

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