Sunday School

[TheEncogitationer]

Robert,

Oooof! We all could have lived an entire present human lifetime or better yet a Transhumanist Singularitarian eternity without having seen that!

Netanyahu may not have a chaise lounge where the Israelis want to send him. October 7th was 9/11-level failure of intelligence and imagination for Israel that happened on his watch. And like a famous Original American Zionist President put it:The Buck Stops Here!

The idea of a Middle East Rivera isn’t bad by itself, but not in the top-down presumptuous Social Engineering way Trump wants to do it.

An organic, voluntary, free-market Capitalist way of doing it has been proposed by Milton Friedman’s Grandson Patri Friedman:

The Seasteading Institute

Home

While I’m not an Anarco-Capitalist, the technical aspect of seasteading is fully plausible and do-able with a minimal government and without forcibly evicting anybody from anywhere, good for anyone whether Jewish, Arabic, or anyone else.

[jakelafort]

Embarrassing takes by Hitchens. He should have been influenced by his mother and family.

Hitchens makes an assumption lacking evidence. IT IS ARAB LAND says he. How so? It was Jewish. That is indisputable unless you are a muslim or exteme lefty. Here is meta on the history. ”

“The land that was once Judea and Israel has had various owners and rulers throughout history. Here’s a brief overview:

1. Ancient Israelites (circa 1000 BCE – 586 BCE): The Israelites, led by King David and later King Solomon, established the Kingdom of Israel, which included the territories of Judea and Israel.

1. Babylonians (586 BCE – 539 BCE): The Babylonians, under King Nebuchadnezzar, conquered the Kingdom of Judah and exiled many Jews to Babylon.

1. Persians (539 BCE – 332 BCE): The Persian Empire, under Cyrus the Great, conquered Babylon and allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the Temple.

1. Greeks (332 BCE – 167 BCE): Alexander the Great conquered the Persian Empire, and the land was ruled by the Ptolemaic and Seleucid dynasties.

1. Hasmoneans (167 BCE – 63 BCE): The Maccabees, a Jewish family, led a successful revolt against the Seleucid Empire and established the Hasmonean dynasty, which ruled Judea and Israel.

1. Romans (63 BCE – 324 CE): The Roman Empire, under Pompey, conquered Judea and Israel, and later, under Emperor Hadrian, renamed the province Syria Palaestina.

1. Byzantines (324 CE – 638 CE): The Byzantine Empire, with its capital in Constantinople, ruled the land after the Roman Empire’s division.

1. Arabs (638 CE – 1099 CE): The Arab conquest of the Middle East brought Islam to the region, and the land was ruled by various Arab dynasties.

1. Crusaders (1099 CE – 1187 CE): The Crusaders, primarily from Europe, conquered the land and established Christian rule.

1. Ayyubids and Mamluks (1187 CE – 1517 CE): The Ayyubid and Mamluk dynasties, both Muslim, ruled the land after the Crusaders’ defeat.

1. Ottomans (1517 CE – 1917 CE): The Ottoman Empire, with its capital in Istanbul, ruled the land for nearly 400 years.

1. British (1917 CE – 1948 CE): The British Empire, under the League of Nations’ mandate, ruled the land after World War I.

1. Israel (1948 CE – present): The State of Israel was established in 1948, and it has since maintained control over the majority of the land.

It’s worth noting that the ownership and control of the land have been disputed throughout history, with various groups and empires vying for power. The modern Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a continuation of this complex and multifaceted history.”

Arabs conquered it. What, colonialists? Oh my! They certainly did not identify as Palestinians. First mention of an Arab people named Palestinians is not until 1898. Jews were and are an idenitifable population with a distinct culture and religion. Not so the Palestinians. There were both Arabs and Jews living in modern Israel all through the centuries. So the it is Arab land does not hold up to scrutiny. It was up for grabs in 1947. I’d argue that Jews have a better claim but it is really irrelevant. Both had reasons to want the land.

Hitch goes on to say it is a silly, messianic, superstitious nationalist idea. No, it is a pragmatic idea borne of the injustices and oppression of Jews throughout Europe and the middle east culminating in the holocaust. Zionism as an idea goes back to 19th century championed by Herzel the atheist. Jews all over the globe were polar opposite of Muslims. Not terrorist. Not trying to impose their Judaism or jihad on others like Muslims do. Just wanting equal rights and to assimilate. Jews were exiled from Christian European nations over and over. Lived under Muslim rule in middle east and treated like dogs. Pogroms in Europe and middle east. The imagined apartheid of the zionist entity against Arabs is how it actually was for Jews in every Muslim nation. Same is true in Christian Europe. Lots of Jew specific racist laws. So the exigency and pragmatism reflects existential crisis culminating in the holocaust. Not at all silly or messianic. Nationalistic? Yeah. The people who had been without their own land for so long were going back. No place was safe for Jews. Demonized as wandering Jews for not having a home. And then demonized for having a home. Jews and Arabs both had nationalistic intentions. Difference is Jews wanted to compromise. Arabs all over middle east did not. Arabs attacked initially and again and again. Lost again and again. And what Hitchens did not understand is that for Arab Muslims it is not about giving the Palestinians the land. It is about no fucking horned Jew pigs having their own state in Israel. Dhimmi status. All minorities in Arab Muslim nations treated like shit but special animus against Jews. Jews were and are reviled to a degree that most westerners are utterly clueless. If anyone listens to the podcast i recommended from Yasmine Mohammed you will see that i am correct. Many first hand accounts of life in middle east. Lots of em.

Hitchens is also wrong about Jews being from Europe and USA. Roughly half of the Jewish population of Israel is from the middle east. And many are dark skinned unlike the supposition of the Jew hating lefty religion. Furthermore the Arabs had their chance by being reasonable like the Jews. Had their chance by being militaristic and attacking unprovoked but lost. So no Hitchens is completely off base. Also i know because i have heard Sam Harris talk about Hitchens position on zionism that Hitchens would have changed and Harris was well acquainted with Hitchens. So i asked meta the question. Meta response follows. Furthermore it is an appeal to authority and it is better if one has unseen thoughts of their own.

“Sam Harris reflects on Christopher Hitchens’ likely stance on Israel and Zionism, stating that while Hitchens was anti-Zionist, his position would likely have evolved in response to the changing global landscape. Harris notes that it’s become increasingly difficult to distinguish between anti-Zionism and antisemitism, particularly given the rise of Islamist extremism ¹.

Harris acknowledges that Hitchens was a unique voice, capable of criticizing Israel without being antisemitic. However, Harris believes that Hitchens would have been appalled by the current state of antisemitism and the ways in which anti-Zionism has become a thinly veiled excuse for Jew-hatred.

In Harris’ view, the conflation of anti-Zionism and antisemitism has become so pronounced that it’s no longer possible to occupy a nuanced, anti-Zionist position without being complicit in antisemitism. This shift has led Harris to reevaluate his own stance on Israel and Zionism, ultimately concluding that the Jewish people’s need for a safe haven in the face of global antisemitism is more pressing than ever.”

[jakelafort]

Agreed Robert.

The lefties who say they love Palestinians are their worst enemies. The lefties and Islamists have their ridiculous narratives that confirm and encourage the innocent children born into a horrific cult to glorify the murder of Jews and the intolerable circumstances of having a Jewish state in their make believe never was nation.

The lefties support the indoctrination by Hamas through UNWRA of Palestinians. Just keeps producing terrorists and a ubiquitous and pervasive mindset of victimhood that justifies the elevation of a silly morality play over life itself. Pathetic.

Also the lefties make Islam sacrosant. Ya can’t say nuthin bad bout the mother of all bad ideas. So how are the rank and file Muslims going to evolve? Not going to happen. The little engines that drive the irrational hatred are not to be tampered.

Do they say you lost. Deal with it. Wars have winners and losers. Losers in other places and times get on with life. That is what you should do. No they continue the little morality play and they project the sins of Christian Europe and USA onto Jews.

[TheEncogitationer]

Fellow Unbelievers,

There is some good news in the world and proof that freedom-loving people can fight and stand for themselves and each other without foreign aid from Uncle Sam:

Emboldened by Trump, Iranian Dissidents Demand Overthrow of Rulers https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/emboldened-by-trump-iranian-dissidents-demand-overthrow-rulers-2025-02-08/

“We say your demise has arrived. With or without negotiations, with or without nuclear weapons, uprising and overthrow await you,” NCRI President-elect Maryam Rajavi said in a speech.

And

Iryna Serdiuk, 37, a nurse turned interpreter originally from the embattled Donbass region, and now exiled in Germany, said she had come to Paris to join forces against a common enemy.
“I’m happy to see these Iranians because they are opposition. They support Ukraine and not the Iranian government which gives Russia weapons. We are together and one day it will be victory for Ukraine and Iran too,” she said.

And most notably:

Mohammad Sabetraftar, 63, an Iranian who has been in exile for 40 years and now runs a taxi business in the United Kingdom, dismissed criticism of the NCRI saying that it was the only alternative capable of achieving democracy in Iran.
“What we expect from Mr Trump or any Western politician is to not support this government. We don’t need money, we don’t need weapons, we rely on the people. No ties with the regime, no connections and put as much pressure on this government.”

Let’s hope Trump and Musk do just as Mr. Sabatraftar specifies and don’t say or do anything lunatic that needs walking back.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by TheEncogitationer. Reason: Quotations
• This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by TheEncogitationer. Reason: Addendum
• This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by TheEncogitationer. Reason: Speliing and Grammar
• This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by TheEncogitationer. Reason: Grammar
• This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by TheEncogitationer. Reason: Spelling

[jakelafort]

Iran is ripe for revolution.

Takes courage to protest there. Miles and miles of courage.

I have heard some Iranians are hoping Israel/US attack Iran. Unlike Hamas that reflect the will of the people and have the support of the people Iranians are jonesing for a new regime and freedoms. Unintended consequences but there is a chance for far greater stability if Ayatollah is ousted and IRGC defeated/disbanded. So a bunch of terrorists threatening Israel would need a new host. And probably the more moderate Saudis would become preeminent among Arab Muslim nations. So instead of the dreaded and unseen nuclear war, greater stability. Still, who knows? Many a slip twixt the cup and the lip.

[TheEncogitationer]

Jake,

Maybe the revolt in Iran will inspire Palestinians to revolt against Hamas, Lebanese to revolt against Hezbollah, and Secularists to revolt against Islamists in the Sunni Islamic nations, Indonesia, and Erdogan’s Turkiye. That would be a jackpot against Islam’s ultimate goàl of a world in Submission!

All of these governments and terrorists groups in disarray would àlso mean fewer effective allies and proxies for Russia and Red Çhina! This will surely embolden Ukraine and Taiwan to stand against conquest!

Oh, and Islam and China’s “Progressive” apologists in academia will all retreat to their safe rooms with their Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion coloring books and all of Putin’s Orthodox and Religious Right apologists will go cower in their Benedictine closets with their MyPillows!

I’m just not seeing a bad side to this yet! Keep up the good work Iranian Dissenters!

• This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by TheEncogitationer. Reason: Addendum

[Unseen]

_Robert_ wrote:

Israel probably has more rights to be there than the US has to be here. However, Native Americans are realists. Their war against the US was lost. The Palestinians just don’t know when to call it over. If they were smart, they would run Trump’s Gaza casino like Native Americans do.

Everyone should go back to their homeland. Ultimately, that would have us all living in Africa.

[Unseen]

jakelafort wrote:

Agreed Robert. The lefties who say they love Palestinians are their worst enemies. The lefties and Islamists have their ridiculous narratives that confirm and encourage the innocent children born into a horrific cult to glorify the murder of Jews and the intolerable circumstances of having a Jewish state in their make believe never was nation.

Israel (the government) has played a role in the hostilities by antagonizing and abusing Palestinians.

The lefties support the indoctrination by Hamas through UNWRA of Palestinians. Just keeps producing terrorists and a ubiquitous and pervasive mindset of victimhood that justifies the elevation of a silly morality play over life itself. Pathetic.

Oh, and they have not been victimized? Good one! LOL

Also the lefties make Islam sacrosant. Ya can’t say nuthin bad bout the mother of all bad ideas. So how are the rank and file Muslims going to evolve? Not going to happen. The little engines that drive the irrational hatred are not to be tampered.

Now you’re either making stuff up or committing the fallacy of composition (taking the trait of one or some members of a group and claiming it belongs to all members). Black Americans are reminded of America’s unconscious and systemic racism daily. Maybe they should just get over it(?).

Do they say you lost. Deal with it. Wars have winners and losers. Losers in other places and times get on with life. That is what you should do. No they continue the little morality play and they project the sins of Christian Europe and USA onto Jews.

Yeah, the Vietnamese should have just gotten over it way back when the French were the occupiers. Would’ve saved 28 thousand American battlefield deaths and four times that in post-war suicides.

But, hey, God gave the Jewish people the land to the exclusion of the people who were living there at the end of WW2, so what does that matter. To make an omelet yada yada.

[Unseen]

Are the Palestinians “a people”?

The thing is, you can use definitions to prove anything. Just find the definition that works.

“Oh, they are just everyday Arabs not a distinct people.” This is the strict definition whereby they have to have their own way of making pottery or a distinctive way of building dwellings or perhaps a local dialect all their own. Maybe even distinct DNA markers.

On the other side, as a sociological mentor of mine said on multiple occasions “propinquity (proximity, close association) breeds special relationships.” A small scale example would be a workplace where “when you want an accurate tally, you see Roger” or “the one who takes the last cup brews a new batch” or there are things they do when someone has a birthday or they meet their numbers. You know the sort of thing I’m talking about.

Now, of course, a workplace is too small a scale to refer to such a group as a people, but instead think of a group confined to a certain area or organized loosely around an area who share shops, who celebrate holidays in locally unique ways, who all enjoy a common “sense of place” and “community.”  That could be a definition of a people at the other end of the spectrum.

Without taking sides, and with no way of settling between the definitions, I think whether Palestinians are “a people” is irrelevant.

[jakelafort]

“Israel (the government) has played a role in the hostilities by antagonizing and abusing Palestinians.:

Oh my god yes! They should have just lied down and died. That fighting back against people who are trying to kill you is something that really antagonizes the Palestinians. They could be put in concentration camps if only they would cooperate with terrorists. Learn from the Germans. They share with the Germans a supremacist ideology. But unlike the Germans they can’t let go after being defeated.

“Oh, and they have not been victimized? Good one! LOL”

Yes very much so. By the lefties and a mind virus that is so devastating it is nearly impossible to understate. But don’t bother listening to those voices who have escaped Islamic enslavement and call you and your ilk…useful idiots. Just keep espousing the party line of your brethren. Allow that coffee to percolate and keep encouraging the evil so that more innocent babies can be consumed in the resistance.

Now you’re either making stuff up or committing the fallacy of composition (taking the trait of one or some members of a group and claiming it belongs to all members). Black Americans are reminded of America’s unconscious and systemic racism daily. Maybe they should just get over it(?).”

Demonstrably valid observation of what is and can only be a generalization. Rank and file remain hard core cultists especially in a place like Gaza. Check the stats on their beliefs. Percentage of atheists? Yeah so the best and only way to alter the landscape is with free speech and harsh criticism of bad ideas.

Making stuff up? You can’t possibly be that ignorant. Islamophobia. Heard that one? Kind of discourages free speech as it relates to the mother of all bad ideas. Apostates rebuked and criticized by lefties for exposing islam. Massive immigration and mass rape in which lefties won’t reveal the ethnicity/religion of the rapists. Institutions of so called higher learning consumed by middle eastern studies that bears little resemblance to reality. Laws based on lefty sentiments and origin that make it a hate crime punishable by time in the can for burning Qurans. etc etc.

“Yeah, the Vietnamese should have just gotten over it way back when the French were the occupiers. Would’ve saved 28 thousand American battlefield deaths and four times that in post-war suicides.

But, hey, God gave the Jewish people the land to the exclusion of the people who were living there at the end of WW2, so what does that matter. To make an omelet yada yada.?”

Talk about a spurious analogy! So the French are the Jews and the Vietnamese are the Palestinians. Yeah the French were coming back to the place that was their home thousands of years ago and in which they maintained a presence all of those centuries? The French were escaping persecution after having been exiled over and over, victimized in pogroms, various forms of racism culminating in a holocaust in which the world snored? The French desperately needed to stop wandering and relying on nations that never had their back? Oh i see. Good to know. I would have thought the French invaded to exploit cheap labor and natural resources. But what the fuck do i know?

You want to pretend that the historicity aformentioned is inexistent. Ok it was about god and chosen people and whatever other lies you have consumed.

[_Robert_]

Unseen, Israel isn’t going anywhere. They are a nuclear power with a kick-ass military and have an iron-dome system and a strong economy. The have friendly Arabs holding official positions in their government.

Multiple Arab countries who attacked them simultaneously all got their asses handed to them and lost territory as a result. Now Gaza is rubble. The West Bank could be next.

OK, ready to move on? Now what? Got anything besides “The creation of Israel was a mistake”? Or “from the river to the sea”? Arabs understand this. The Persians, not so much. Without that government of pricks, this thing would have ended long ago.

[jakelafort]

This is last time i respond to Unseen on anything. It is just worthless speaking to racists or ideologues.

Yes of course the Palestinians are a people. Their ancestry has been checked. It is from the levant. Arabs. And as i wrote first mention of Palestinians as a people is 1898. Now they even have a culture as the most privileged refugees in the world. Yeah i appropriated that line but it is valid.

It is relevant to distinguish Jews from Palestinians to debunk the Islamist lefty lies. Was it Palestinian land? Never had a nation. Ottomans and then Brits controlled area for centuries. The land was up for grabs. IT WAS NOT ARAB LAND STOLEN BY MOTHERFUCKING JEW COLONISTS. One group was compromising. Other attacked. And attacked. And refused other compromises to achieve two states. Never wanted two states. Supremacist religion mind virus demanded no mother fucking Jew dhimmi dogs in that part of world and preferably none anywhere. Aint that complicated unless you are a racist or ideologue or both.

[TheEncogitationer]

Fellow Unbelievers,

As i researched more on NCRI, my hopes for a better iran and a better world got dashed.

NCRI and it’s founder MEK has engaged in terrorism and sided with Iraq’s Saddam Hussein during Iran’s war with him in the Eighties.

National Council of Resistance of Iran–Wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Council_of_Resistance_of_Iran

Fortunately there are other Iranian resistance movements, so maybe hope is not lost.

[Unseen]

_Robert_ wrote:

Unseen, Israel isn’t going anywhere. They are a nuclear power with a kick-ass military and have an iron-dome system and a strong economy.

The U.S. are a nuclear power with the world’s top military, are immune to invasive attacks, and the world’s strongest economy. And then along came the Vietcong and our introduction to asymmetrical warfare, which can involve terrorism. Terrorism is a way a weaker power fights a more powerful one. They make remaining unpleasant and costly.

Israel is basically a European country imposed by outside forces on a culturally different region. It’s about as Middle Eastern as Italy.

I’m not arguing that Israel shouldn’t exist going forward but that’s completely compatible with my point that its creation was a mistake in the first place, and one which has tragic and potentially disastrous consequences for the world. To believe or argue otherwise is delusional and intellectually dishonest.

I don’t hate anyone involved. It’s too late to undo Israel the same way it was created. If it will be undone, it will be undone the same way the Vietcong drove out the French and Americans, the Americans and Boers the British, the Finns the Soviets, and the Afghans the Americans.

Terrorism is morally neutral and depends upon what it is used for (is the goal just?) and who is judging it.

Before judging Hamas, imagine if by some whim of history China were to establish an occupation of America, would Americans shy away from using terror tactics? Would Americans then be buying the argument that terrorism is immoral?

I think we both know the answer.

 

• This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by Unseen.

[TheEncogitationer]

Fellow Unbelievers,

I think now I remember now why I dropped out of this Forum several months back: Atheists may be free of the irrationality surrounding and derived from the idea of God, but they still can embrace other forms of irrationality.

It was out of an act of purest optimism that I came back hoping I could help counteract that irrationality. I see now that this was a mistake.

Unseen, you are the worst on this front but everybody here has their pet topic on which they talk around everyone else.

No ill will to anyone here, but I can only take small dose of this anymore before it rubs off on me. ‘Bye!

[Author]

Posts